Season 1, Ep. 6: Being Right vs. Getting it Right - Building Champions

Season 1, Ep. 6: Being Right vs. Getting it Right

Healthy teams function at their best when every member of the team is supporting one another and working together to make sure the best ideas and solutions are brought to the table. But whether you’re a leader or a team member, we’ve all had experiences where just the opposite occurs. A teammate dominates the conversation with their own ideas, or we become defensive when our own ideas are called into question. In these instances, our fears and insecurities create an unhealthy environment, one where the team stops working together to get things right and instead, we focus on being right and protecting our own egos.

Join us as we learn from Adal Rifai—improviser, coach and teacher at Chicago’s acclaimed iO Theater—about what the practices of successful improv teams can teach us about how to focus less on being right and start focusing more on what you and your team can do to get it right and achieve better creativity, cohesion and results.

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Speaker 1 (00:06):

[inaudible] based on a suggestion or a location.

Speaker 2 (00:12):

So I remember a night where our, our suggestion led us to, um, I can’t remember the exact suggestion. It was, it was maybe five years ago, but say it was like aquarium. Uh, once we got the word aquarium, you know, I made the move to have gills and start to swim. And before I could even get three feet onstage as a fish, somebody else was picking me up to make, to make me swim in the water. Somebody else was making the ripples at the top of the aquarium, somebody else’s, um, miming putting flakes at the top of the aquarium for food. For me, somebody else’s becoming a treasure chest, uh, putting forth bubbles into the environment.

Speaker 1 (00:48):

That’s

Speaker 2 (00:48):

Adult refi. I am the director of corporate training at IO Chicago, which is an M a long-form improv theater. I am a podcaster as well. I do the podcast, a from the magic Tavern and hay riddle, riddle, and I perform in the weekly show world news tonight at IO Chicago,

Speaker 3 (01:05):

It’s founding in 1981, IO has been a Mecca of comedy and improvisation boasting, a wide array of talented alumni, including Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, and Mike Myers IO focuses on long form improv where performers take a suggestion from the audience, even something as random as aquarium and use that small nugget to build complex characters and hilarious scenes. And when things go right, like they did with Addles aquarium scene improv can be a beautiful example of grace

Speaker 2 (01:37):

Teamwork within five seconds. We were so in tune with each other, almost like a, like a good dance partner. We had started to anticipate each other’s movements where it’s like, I know Adam sprain, I know what he’s going for. Let me immediately get in there and help out. But this level

Speaker 3 (01:53):

Teamwork, where everyone in the group is looking to support one another and working together toward a common goal. It doesn’t come easy. In fact, thanks to our egos and our insecurities. We too often sacrifice the good of the team for whatever makes us feel important or in control. I’m Daniel Harkavy. And this is the building champions podcast for the past 20 plus years. I and my team here at building champions have been helping top business leaders to improve the way they live and lead. Our goal for this podcast is to share stories and insights that will help you to become a better leader. This episode is about being right versus getting it right, and how the temptation to lead in ways that stroke our own egos can sabotage our team’s success.

Speaker 3 (02:49):

We touched on this idea of being right versus getting it right in our episode with Annie Duke. When leaders focus on being right, they’re concerned with how they, to others, they want to seem in control. They’ve got all the right answers. On the other hand, when leaders focus on getting it right, they’re able to put their egos to the side in order to do whatever is necessary to ensure that the team and the organization succeed after working with so many leaders throughout the last two plus decades, I can tell you that too many of them lead with this focus on being right. Adults sees this too, especially in improvisers who are new to the art form. And it often comes from this place of fear.

Speaker 2 (03:36):

Most, most people struggle at first. So there, there is that idea of you want to impress the teacher. You want to impress your classmates. You want to prove to yourself that you should be here, that you should be, you know, be on SNL or whatever. You’re trying to, whatever ladder you’re trying to climb. So, uh, when you get, when you get people, when they first start off, there is that initial instinct to, to try and be funny, to go for the joke, to say funny things

Speaker 3 (04:00):

Of us at one point or another, have felt this desire to prove ourselves and to stand out among the crowd as leaders, we’re often under a lot of pressure to seem like we’ve got it all together. We’ve got all the right answers to seem like we’re the smartest person in the room or the one with the best ideas. But when we give into this pressure and we try to live up to such lofty and unreal expectations, this can fuel deep insecurities and our own fears. And we begin to pose. We don’t want to be found out. We’re afraid of looking dumb or a weak or wrong. And so as we lead and make decisions at work, we start placing too much emphasis on showcasing our own abilities and maintaining our own brand. Our own reputation.

Speaker 2 (04:45):

See a lot of scenes with early improvisers. When they’re first learning a lot of scenes where they make themselves, uh, Bulletproof, or they make themselves God, or they make themselves God’s boss or it’s, you’re fired kind of stuff. So early on, when you come from a place of fear, it becomes this, this scramble for control, this scramble for like status and finding, finding issue or fault with other people.

Speaker 3 (05:10):

I love this quote by Andy Stanley. He says, I don’t need to be the smartest guy in the room. I just need to be the leader when your identity is rooted in being right and looking good in front of others, you leave little room for collaboration and teamwork. So how do we avoid this trap? How can we reject this notion that as leaders we need to look good and always be right? And instead start focusing on what we can do to make sure that we succeed as a team. There are a few tools from the improv toolbox that I absolutely believe can help. The first tool is all about how you listen,

Speaker 2 (05:52):

And a big thing in improv that we try and teach early on. And eventually it takes hold is that you try and listen to understand versus listening to respond most improvisers early on. When they’re in classes, they, they usually watch the other person’s mouth. They wait for it to stop moving. And then they launch into what they’ve been wanting to say for two or three minutes, the best improvisers learn to listen to understand they let somebody finish their full thought, their full sentence. They digest it all. And then they respond thusly being as informed as possible versus, uh, having, you know, been sitting on something for a few minutes,

Speaker 3 (06:29):

Listening to understand versus listening to respond. That is absolutely crucial when we’re focused on being right. We don’t listen to understand. We’re just waiting to put forth and defend our own idea. But when you focus instead on getting it right, listening to understand, allows you to take in new and differing opinions to let these ideas bounce around the room and to sharpen one another. When this kind of listening takes place, trust is built dialogue, flourishes, and good ideas are shaped into great ones that can bring valuable growth and innovation to the organization. And that leads us to tool. Number two, vulnerability,

Speaker 2 (07:11):

An analogy I like to use in terms of what it takes for a team to succeed is that everyone on the team should be okay putting forward Cole. So if we’re collaborating, I put forward coal, you put forward coal. We all, we all put forward a piece of coal. And then collectively we, we turn that into something precious and multifaceted and, and, and gem like, right. If each one of us tries to produce a fully formed diamond we’ll break ourselves, and that will lead to that siloed mentality. So the idea of, uh, an improv, and I think this, this correlates to the business world and improv, it’s not about saying funny things. It’s about, we’re going to keep playing with an idea. We’re going to keep putting things out there until we sort of bumped set someone to spike it down or for the team to spike it down.

Speaker 3 (07:55):

When the team comes together to problem solve and brainstorm, everyone needs to be okay, putting forward a piece of coal, putting forward their ideas. This is a vulnerable exercise, and it’s one where you and everyone else on the team need to be on the same page. You need to have humility and know how your idea may not be the best one, or it may not be the one that the group chooses to pursue. Having this humility enables you to realize that your lump of coal is not yet some precious diamond that needs to be coddled and protected at all costs. You need to have courage and be brave enough to expose your ideas to the group without taking up a defensive posture. But this lump of cold does have value there’s potential in it to become a gym for the organization. But that potential is only realized when the team works together to support it and to Polish it, to make it all that it can be, which leads to tool number three. Yes. And yeah, I mean, that’s,

Speaker 2 (08:56):

That’s improv one Oh one. That’s what the whole, um, craft is built on. The idea that you’re collaborating versus something like standup, where you’re, you’re alone on stage, you sort of succeed or fail on your own with improv. It’s a collaborative effort. You’re working with others. And you’re trusting that the, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and at IO, which is where I, I, uh, perform and teach the foundation of IO is yes. And which is anything somebody says we agree to, and we build upon. Um, and the idea of at any given time, we’re trying to look art. We’re trying to make our teammates look like geniuses and artists and poets. And we’re going to trust that they do the same for us versus trying to elevate our own ideas or make ourselves look good. And, and everyone else be damned.

Speaker 3 (09:43):

Leadership is more like improv than it is. Stand up. It’s a collaborative effort. You’re vulnerable with one another and look to support one another’s ideas wherever possible, because you know, this is the only way that the overall organization will flourish. It’s always up to we, not me when you’re only worried about being right. You miss out on the benefit of the team. The best ideas never come to light and the organization suffers, but when you make getting it right a priority, when you put your ego aside and support your team members, for the sake of doing what’s best for the organization, you’ll be amazed at the levels of trust, growth and innovation that follow as a result. So this week, when you fill your fears and insecurities, when you feel that temptation to be defensive and to make yourself look better than your peers, remember these tools remember to listen well, to be brave, to be vulnerable and to support your teammates and their ideas. This is where all of the diamonds lie. And if you do your personal leadership, your team and your organization will be much better for Coming up. Todd Mo setter, our vice president of content development. We’ll sit down with one of our building champions, executive coaches to share some real world experience and discuss some practical tips for how you can stop worrying about being right and start focusing on getting it right.

Speaker 4 (11:22):

Hi, my name is Todd Mo setter, and this is the part of the podcast where we get to sit down with one of our experienced executive coaches and talk about what we just heard. And more importantly, how you can apply it to your everyday leadership. I’m excited to be joined today by coach Michael Regan, uh, before joining us, Michael was both a team leader and a small business owner. So he has tons of experience in this area. And before he was a coach, he was a client for many years, as well as being a lifelong st. Louis Cardinal fan. And if you are going toe to toe with anyone in a trivia competition, you want Michael on your team, Michael, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 5 (11:57):

I’m not sure I can top the introduction there that you, you hit all of my life’s highlights in one 32nd clip. Wonderful.

Speaker 4 (12:04):

Oh, I’m glad we’re starting on a strong note, Michael, in the first half of the episode, we had a chance to really explore this concept of how leaders need to get it right. More importantly than being right too often as a leader. I think we feel this pressure to always have the answer to always be the right one, but that can actually get in a way in our leadership. Where have you seen leaders struggle with this,

Speaker 5 (12:27):

Brought back some examples that maybe the entire audience would know really well on a, on more of a macro level, right? We’ve we’ve seen being right versus getting it right when, um, when we look back in time at, at blockbuster video and, and how they were so focused on being right about the video rental experience and, and how Netflix had a creative idea that that was more in tune with, with what consumers were telling them, they wanted, you know, the, the Genesis of that opportunity was cash. We hate late fees. And then look, what happened? You look at other macro examples like Blackberry, they, they were very focused on being right about mobile technology, where, you know, the folks that, uh, at Apple and, and other smartphone developers were looking at things through a wider lens and, and asking better questions and being more curious about opportunities to develop and design things.

Speaker 5 (13:20):

But, you know, those are big picture examples, maybe my favorite big picture one, by the way, Todd is, is Kodak, right? They invent digital photography and they bury it because they think that being right is processing film and, and end up missing a huge opportunity to lead the way in that industry. I guess if I bring it down to a level I can relate to personally was my first business experience. You, you mentioned running a small business, which I did for about 15 years. We, uh, I got invited into that business as a sales person and was watching a business owner who at that time had developed a product. He created, it was a fabric wall art product that was being sold in commercial venues all over the world at that point. But he was so focused as sometimes entrepreneurs can be on, on designing something.

Speaker 5 (14:13):

He was so personally passionate about that, that he failed to realize that the audience was telling him something different. I think that’s what this owner was, was struggling with at that time. Was that getting a lot of personal feedback, but not really listening to the team, not really listening to the audience. And, uh, and so I came along and, and, and really just became very curious about taking his concept and asking new questions and looking at new marketplaces and exploring new ideas. And that became a great opportunity for me. And I was really thankful for it. It allowed us to embrace, uh, more of, uh, a mindset of growth instead of being so fixed. Well, this is what we’ve always done, and we should keep doing it.

Speaker 4 (14:54):

I think back, uh, earlier this season to our episode with Annie Duke, uh, about being sure that our brains hate to be wrong. So I think, I think tied into this is when we put forth an idea, it’s easy to then stop listening to others. And I think in your example, getting it right, goes hand in hand with this idea of curiosity, right? That you need to be open that your first idea may not be your best idea, and that you need to listen to the customer. You need to listen to your team in order to get their perspective, to sharpen that idea. When you work with leaders, where do you see them? Like, what does this look like? Sometimes when you see it lived out, right? This idea of holding onto their idea too tightly, they shut people down when you’re coaching people. What does that look like?

Speaker 5 (15:39):

Yeah. I, uh, I think you’re definitely correct that this can happen and I don’t want to, you know, isolate it to leaders, although that really can be where it, it can be the most difficult for an organization to handle because when you have a leader who has to be the originator of the great idea has to be the creator of the concept has to be the one who owns all of these things. It creates attention. And, and you’ve seen a Todd it’s that tension between an abundance mindset and a scarcity mindset. So when you’ve got leaders who are just pushing to be right, that that scarcity mindset starts coming out in that environment. And scarcity, for me, leads to three things. I see scarcity, um, leading to a real fear based culture. And once we look at that and we see lots of challenges that happen, I see scarcity being very self-centered and it’s very much focused on what I need to control instead of understanding, um, the opportunity we have to, to explore new solutions and scarcity ultimately, and it’s an as fixed mindset, sees everything as win, lose black, white, right wrong.

Speaker 5 (16:51):

And that can be really challenging. I try to help my clients think through exploring their unique ability. I’ll often ask them simple questions, right? Journalism one Oh one, I think you and I might call it, you know, let’s explore who you really are. Let’s explore what you really want. Let’s explore why you want it. And let’s really try as a leader to understand the roots of those so that as you bring other people along, they can start to connect with some of your uniqueness. And in turn, you start to experience some of their uniqueness. And then that abundance starts happening in a culture. And lots of great things can happen. So you’re, you’re right. I called it curiosity earlier. Um, the, the art of asking great questions often leads to a lot more opportunity for a leader than them just pushing to be right. That just leads to scarcity. Yeah. I couldn’t

Speaker 4 (17:50):

Agree more. We we’ve been focusing on the leader, but everyone on the team kind of has a responsibility to play here. Right? So in addition to the leader, being there is, as you’ve had a chance to work with teams, um, and you’ve seen this dynamic play out live. It may not even just be the leader that’s doing. It may be a team member that individuals start maybe advocating for their own idea, um, or, or they end up being a little more competitive with each other. How would you coach teams as a whole to kind of fight against this urge?

Speaker 5 (18:24):

So I’ll, I’ll use this example because I think most of our audience can relate to this one. If you’ve been on a team and you’ve been invited into the conference room, we’re having a meeting and I don’t even want to get into the, the purpose of the meeting in this hypothetical, but we’ve got enough people around the table who understand, you know, why we’re meeting what we’re doing. And someone on that team, someone on that team is the person who always has to speak first, who always has to have that first word kinda set the, um, the boundary on what we’re going to do, uh, set the expectations, all those things. And their intentions are probably good, right? They’re thinking agenda, they’re thinking direction, but in doing so, they go ahead and they throw out their opinion, or maybe even jumped straight to their solution.

Speaker 5 (19:10):

And, and you asked about the team, right? So when you have one teammate that inserts themselves in that I’ve got to be right in that meeting mindset. Watch what happens around that room, just be an observer. First of all, everybody just gets quiet or everybody just backs off and goes into a position of retreat. Um, you start to see people play really safe when they do speak up, they qualify everything. Well, I was thinking about this. What if we, you know, they’re very cautious. They start to play safe. They start to get nervous and start agreeing with that person, him or her, whoever kind of laid down the gauntlet at the beginning of that meeting. Um, now they just nervously started grieving with them because maybe they’re afraid of the conflict. Maybe they don’t know how in that culture to have a, uh, a fair fight over the quality of, of that comment or conversation.

Speaker 5 (20:05):

And ultimately, I guess the bummer in a team environment is when that happens, when that person inserts themselves in that way, generally speaking, nothing meaningful happens from those meetings. Those are the meetings that everyone hates toasted, the meetings that people walk out of and think, why is this on my calendar? And why do we do this over and over again? So it really creates a, any team member you’re right. Whether it’s a leader or another member of the team who inserts themselves in that way, it, it creates, uh, an awkward toxicity. And it really, again, devalues the performance of the team.

Speaker 4 (20:38):

Yeah. Meetings really kind of define a culture, right? So if you have good productive meetings, you’re going to, you’re going to have a different kind of culture than if you have the type that you just described and this need to be right and get it right. And competition really gets lived out there. I love Adam’s analogy about the lump of coal, right? That if you talked about some people being less likely to share, or they get defensive, if we can create an environment where people want to bring their lump of coal, um, knowing that with the right sharpening and the right pressure, the right testing, it can turn into a great idea. I, we talked about the, yes. And I also think about a colleague that introduced me to this concept years ago. And I’ve, I’ve used it with teams ever since is it’s quick for us to think about why something won’t work.

Speaker 4 (21:25):

Um, especially myself, I’m guilty of it. I’m kind of a sharpener. So when I hear an idea, rather than playing with it and expanding it, I often want to kind of drive down to realism a little too quick and, and figure out why it’s not going to work and it’s with a heart to make it better, but it doesn’t always encourage collaboration from a team. So a phrase that I’ve tried to instill in my own thinking is don’t think about no, because think about yes, if so, it’s too easy to say, no, this won’t work because of X, Y, or Z, but if I can quickly shift my mindset to yeah. You know what that could, that could be a great idea if, and then it kind of spurs this yes. And mentality, right. Whereas a group we’re responding now to say, yeah, that could work. If we do these things. And truthfully, maybe we can’t do those things, but by focusing on what’s possible versus, you know, what’s probable or realistic, we can get better ideas.

Speaker 5 (22:20):

Todd, I, I know that you’re gonna, um, pivot that. I want to make sure I grabbed something really important that you just said, because I think that is a beautiful way to take very black and white thinking and find a way in which we can grow. And it’s really that simple. So I hope people just heard what you said and realized these, you don’t need a psychology degree in order to accomplish these things in a team environment. You just need to have a willingness to throw those. Yes. And or if those phrases, another one that I’ve been a big fan of, because we of course, are very focused on helping leaders eliminate saying yes to too much. And so we really focus on the strength of saying, no one of the keys, I tell leaders as well as not every note is taken out back and shoot it dead sometimes.

Speaker 5 (23:07):

No is just not now. And keeping ideas in a, I guess here goes my baseball again, keeping them in the bullpen, keeping ideas in a place where you can come back to them when you and I whiteboard, I love the corner of the whiteboard. This is the place where we can, you know, go ahead and, and harness, uh, an idea that might not be appropriate. Now we’re saying no, we’re saying not now. And I think all of those gives a leader and a team, an opportunity to be creative and really look for opportunity in the moment instead of feeling like everything has to be right or wrong.

Speaker 4 (23:42):

Yeah. It’s a, it’s funny how we can quickly move on to probably a lot of good ideas that if just had some time, I love that concept of not yet. Um, sometimes good ideas just need a little time to percolate and mature. Um, and that can make all of the difference. So, uh, in a full moment of transparency, we’re, we’re never above a lot of these things. We’re guilty of them ourselves. Right. Um, I know when I think about leading a team or being a team member here at building champions, I can be guilty of this one. Sometimes for me personally, um, I can feel my blood pressure kinda go up a little bit. And it’s funny because I’ll shift in my seat and I can start feeling a little defensive because it’s easy for me to confuse the idea with the assault, right. That if I put forth an idea and someone responds with a well, that won’t work because, or have you thought about, I can feel this natural posture coming into me that makes me feel like they’re attacking me, you know, rather than the idea. And when I play the film back, they’re not, um, it’s just my IQ going off. Um, you know, so one thing that I’ve coached myself on is when I can feel my body, um, change, right. My fists get a little tighter, my arms cross. I use that as a cue to go, all right, let’s check ourselves here, take a deep breath, relax and separate. Um, when have you ever, uh, had any triggers here and what have you found helpful personally, to kind of avoid this trap?

Speaker 5 (25:11):

So this is an awesome question. And one of the things that I like to do as a coach is I like to help people see things from a slightly different perspective because when we do, we can often find a different opportunity to ask better questions and explore other ideas. So as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking, Oh yeah, I’ve got lots of really great examples of where I turn up on this one at work all the time. But if I’m being honest, I’d switched the perspective and say, you know, where I’m really guilty of this far too often. It’s as a parent, think about how many times as a parent in the spirit of raising kids, I’ve got to 21 and 18 and a 16 year old right now, I am in the season in which being right versus getting it right, is a flashpoint on any given Tuesday.

Speaker 5 (25:58):

And so how often am I guilty as a parent of not asking great questions of my kids, you know, jumping right into assumptions or, or opinions or good old fashioned dad lecture? How often am I not curious enough about why they might see things differently? How often am I guilty of not using really great PQ, right. I don’t have that sense of emotional intelligence in order to allow me to seek, uh, some level of, of empathy in which I can engage with them on a meaningful level. Maybe it’s because I just don’t demonstrate trust enough. I’m not sure, but it it’s. Yeah, it’s, it’s hard to that question because, um, all of the easy answers I want to give you, um, and you get to see every day in my, uh, engagement at the office with the team are, you know, a shadow of, of how much I can struggle with this as a parent. And I think most of our listeners can relate to that there’s somewhere in their lives in which this challenge exists. And if they’re willing to see it from a different angle, maybe, maybe there’s a way like a doll to help them embrace that spirit of we are a team and, and really exploring things as a team and focusing on the victory of the team, whether that team is at your office or we’re in your home.

Speaker 4 (27:25):

I love that. That’s where you kind of brought us home here because for me, you know, that’s probably one of the biggest takeaways in this concept is it’s a lot easier to get it right. If you know why you’re getting it right, right. That it’s about the team winning or the customer winning or the business winning, or the family winning versus me winning. And it’s so easy for me to confuse those two things. I’m a fairly competitive person, and I’ll be honest. I love hitting the game winning shot. Um, but knowing that it’s, that’s not the ultimate win, right? That it’s about, again, the customer, the team, the product, the service you provide, the community you serve. If you can always keep your gaze that that’s the ultimate win, it makes getting it right. A lot easier as we’re, as we’re wrapping up here, any closing thoughts we didn’t touch on that you’d love our listeners to, uh, to walk away with.

Speaker 5 (28:15):

Well, I’m a, I’m a big believer in, in celebrating progress over perfection. So all of us, all of us, uh, in the process of attempting to leverage these strengths and, and explore our creativity, we make mistakes. We do it all the time. And I think it’s important to just call that out and say, embrace progress over perfection. You know, things don’t need to be perfect. I’ve got lots of great examples of clients that it’s been really fun over the last six years to see them shift into that mode. You know, I, I don’t want to call out specific people, but I, you know, I, I think of, you know, a client who, um, was, was hiring a millennial and really struggling with the, you know, needing to be right about how to manage time. And, and we simply worked through it from a context of how do we expand the box so that boundaries exist, but we create a little more space for that person to operate within their natural style.

Speaker 5 (29:13):

And five years later, they are absolutely crushing it as a team because they created a solution that really worked for both of them because they, they explored what we talked about it. I think of other clients who’ve really tried new things, whether it was learning new skills or, or trusting their team to do new things, or even trusting their process that they’ve created. It’s fun as a coach to, to think through, you know, dozens and dozens of people that have really embraced that. And I love celebrating progress. So if, if I can leave anyone today with encouragement is don’t be hung up on perfection, just make progress. And if you’ve got someone in your life that can walk that journey with you, uh, hopefully they too recognize your progress and can keep encouraging you to keep trying to be better. I think if that’s the spirit in which we operate, all of our teams will be better for it.

Speaker 4 (30:07):

Very well said, my friend, I think there’s, this could be applied to a lot of topics, but especially with this one of getting right or being right, there’s going to be days where we get it right a little more in days where we don’t. And I love the encouragement to celebrate the progress. Michael, thank you for taking time out. Really appreciate it. And your insights, uh, listeners again, thank you so much for taking time to join us. Um, if you want to access any materials or resources you can@buildingchampions.com forward slash podcast, while you’re there, we’d love for you to leave a rating or review, it helps other people find us.

Speaker 3 (30:45):

Thanks so much to our guests, Al refi for taking us inside the fun and instructive world of improv. And thank you for investing the time and listening to this episode. My hope is that you take to heart, the call to be the leader who cares more about getting it right than you do about being right. I promise you when you learn to check your own ego at the door and you invest in the things that will help the team to work together so that the team gets it, right, people will notice, and your leadership influence will absolutely grow. As a reminder, you can listen to other episodes and access, helpful tools by visiting building champions.com forward slash podcast. And we’d love it. If you would share the podcast and leave us a rating and a review, those reviews help other people to find our podcast. We truly want to make each and every episode in a way that creates this positive and lasting difference of every single listener. So your feedback, your ratings, all of that will help us to grow, improve, and ensure that we’re hitting our target.