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Season 3, Ep. 1: Beliefs Before Behaviors

Beliefs come before behaviors. Our inner thinking drives our outer actions—both in business and life. Just as healthy thinking can help you make disciplined and positive choices, faulty thinking can cause an emotional and physical response that differs from how you really want to be living.

Join us as Dr. Karl Kaluza unpacks how symptoms are indicative of a greater root issue—and how our thinking and believing can impact our behaviors—affecting our capacity to positively influence those around us.

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(We use an audio transcription service so please disregard any errors below.)

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

People will typically come in with what I would describe as a symptom. They come in because their back hurts. They come in because their pants don’t fit. They come in because they’re having a headache and there are lots of medications to treat that there’s medications to make your pants fit better. And there’s medications that decrease pain, whether it be your back or your head. But if all you’re doing is treating the symptoms and you don’t get down to, what’s actually causing the symptom to begin with. As soon as you stop your pants-fitting medication, your pants will soon stop fitting again. And as soon as you stop your back pain medication, you find your back still hurts. So getting down to the root of what’s actually causing the symptom that someone presents with is part of what makes my job really interesting.

Daniel Harkavy:

That’s my friend, Dr. Karl Kaluza.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

I am a primary care and sports medicine physician. I see patients at my office just down the road here from your office. And I’m also team physician for the Portland trailblazers. I have been team physician in the past for the Portland Timbers, the Portland Thunder, which is Portland’s arena football team. And I recently have been in touch with the US Ski & Snowboarding team, which has been something new and exciting for me.

Daniel Harkavy:

Karl says that patients often come in looking for a quick fix. They’re looking to treat their symptoms and not what’s at the root, the disease. How many of us seek medical help after we experienced an issue only then to realize that our symptoms are actually part of a larger problem—one that could have been prevented. As humans, we seek instant gratification. We search for quick fixes, like medication to heal our ailments.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

I never have a dull day at the office or at work. There’s never an uninteresting case or patient. And part of it is this detective work of trying to get down to the root of what the actual problem is. So for someone that has back pain, for instance, if one leg is longer than the other, and they’re walking around cattywampus the entire time, imagine that you put on one high heeled shoe and barefoot on the other side and walked around for 10 miles. You may not be surprised that your back hurt afterwards. That would be one of the potential causes of having back pain and similar things can apply for headaches. It’s been a relatively stressful time in the country, in the state, in our county, in our city and in our community recently. And I think headache frequency has gone up because underlying stress has increased muscle tension and the increased muscle tension leads to tension headaches.

Daniel Harkavy:

It’s all too often that we experience this ourselves. We’ve created an environment that allows us to float on autopilot without stopping and questioning our thoughts, our feelings and beliefs. We look for a solution to one of the symptoms of the greater problem in our lives, our leadership or our businesses when we really need to address the underlying cause. After all, beliefs always come before behaviors, that’s the key to sustainable change and results. I’m Daniel Harkavy. And this is The Building Champions Podcast. For the past 25 plus years now my team and I here at Building Champions have been helping top business leaders improve the way they live and lead. Our goal for this podcast is to share stories and insights that will help you to become a better leader. This episode is about the importance of addressing your beliefs before trying to change your behaviors and how thoughts, feelings, and beliefs impact your actions, results and relationships.

Daniel Harkavy:

When we work with our clients to better understand this issue, we create a picture of two gears. What we refer to as the inner gear and the outer gear. On the outer gear, you have those observable behaviors or the symptoms, in our medical example. These are the actions we take, the relationships that we form and the results that are important to us. When we want to drive change, these are often the areas we focus on—which makes sense. They’re observable and quick to implement and often causing us the most short-term pain. We’re not happy with the results we’re getting, the quality of our relationships, especially those most important to us and we know that our actions or routines aren’t always setting us up for the success or results that we’re after. And with the right focus, attention and discipline, we can see change here, but most likely it will be short-lived at best. Dr. Kaluza experiences this firsthand with some of his patients when they try to change their behaviors around healthy eating.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

There is a lot of initial ambition and people buy different foods. They’ll stop drinking Mountain Dew for a day and a half. And then there is a high incidence of reversion to prior behavior. So take the soda, for instance, I will inform someone that’s drinking soda say well as a contributing to your diabetes problem and your weight problem and your blood pressure problem. So if you want to fix those things, you’re going to have to change your behavior with regard to the soda intake. And they’ll do it—sometimes. Assuming that they believe the information that I’m providing, and they have an interest and incentive to changing the behavior, to stop drinking soda, for instance, and they go do it—it tends to not stick. At some point they resume drinking soda and there are commonalities to that, like what causes someone to lapse. And it tends to be the times of higher stress. It tends to be times that they need self-soothing of some sort.

Daniel Harkavy:

That’s the problem. It could be a moment of stress or a missed deadline or an emotional trigger, but at some point we’ll revert back to what we truly think, feel and believe. And think, feel and believe make up that second gear, the inner gear. If we truly want to see long-term lasting change, that’s where we need to focus our efforts, the inner gear. Well, all three are closely connected. Let’s take a moment to look at each of them a bit deeper, starting with our thoughts. On average, we spend over 50% of our waking hours thinking about something other than what we’re doing in the present moment. And with more than 6,200 thoughts running through our minds each day, it’s easy to get lost and distracted. Taking control of your thoughts is an important first step. And in today’s times, it’s more important and more critical than ever before.

Daniel Harkavy:

Be mindful of what information and inputs you’re taking in. Guard your thoughts and spend time to actually think about your thoughts—using your discernment to separate the truth from the fiction. The second piece is your beliefs. What do you believe about yourself? Other people and the world around you. This one is key because it has such a strong connection to your actions and behaviors. Let’s take the example of a boss that’s received some feedback that he can be too demeaning with his team. So he goes through a training and adopts some new behaviors to become more caring and empathetic, much like our soda example before. If he doesn’t shift his beliefs as well, the change probably won’t last.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

So if we go back to the boss, that’s generally not very nice to people. It may be that they don’t presently believe that the success of the people that they’re working with matters very much. And you need to examine that because that’s a belief. The question is, is that a true belief or not? Because if you’re believing something that’s not true and it’s creating harmful behavior as a result, and you’re getting worse outcomes than you would otherwise get, you have to back up multiple steps and go back and see if my beliefs are true or not.

Daniel Harkavy:

That question is an important one to ask ourselves—is what I’m believing actually true or not based on past experiences, thinking and information? Sometimes we form beliefs that are not true and that can have a negative impact on us and those around us. Dr. Kaluza has seen this with some of his diabetic patients.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

So people will say like, oh, my blood sugar is high. I’ve got diabetes. Sugar must therefore be part of the problem. I’m not saying it’s not, but they, they develop this belief about sugar being the problem. And they therefore cut down on the amount of sugar, for instance, by moving from regular Mountain Dew to diet Mountain Dew, sugar-free Mountain Dew, cause the sugar-free must surely be better than the sugary stuff if sugar is what’s causing my diabetes. And so they changed their behavior in that case, based upon a belief that probably isn’t a good belief to hold in the first place because people that drink sugar-free soda have a higher rate of diabetes than people who drink regular soda and people that have diabetes that drink diet soda have worse blood sugar control than people that drink regular soda, both soda groups, the diet and the regular with the diet being relatively more sinister, have much higher rates of diabetes and much higher blood sugars than people who don’t drink soda at all. So I would say based upon the data, the belief should be drinking any soda is problematic in diabetes. And drinking diet soda is worse than drinking regular soda. And then your behavior should flow out of that relatively more trustworthy belief and examining why you believe what you believe in the first place.

Daniel Harkavy:

Left unobserved that can happen. We let some faulty beliefs or narratives about ourselves and other people creep in. And then those bad beliefs, they can be so powerful that they will drive not only our actions, but our feelings and emotions as well. And that feeling piece is so important. We like to think of ourselves as rational people that feel, but the truth is that we make most of our decisions based upon how we feel. And then we use the facts to justify our decisions. If anything, we’re often predictably irrational, even with the best intentions in the moment, our emotions can be overpowering and keep us from making the best decision about how we act and more importantly, how we react. As humans, we just don’t have the energy to continue to act in a way that doesn’t align with our emotions.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

It’s exhausting to try and behave in a way that’s disingenuous from what you’re feeling on the inside. But if you change your belief about something, the behaviors, they kind of take care of themselves in large part.

Daniel Harkavy:

Bottom line: beliefs always come before behaviors. If you want to see long-term change, better results and more meaningful, intimate relationships, you can’t just change what you do. It starts with getting a better understanding of who you are, what you think, feel and believe about yourself, other people, and the world around you. It’s often not a question of knowledge—what do we know? But rather a question of what do we do? And if our beliefs aren’t aligned with our behaviors, it will be difficult to find long-term change and success.

Dr. Karl Kaluza:

June comes into the office because her knees hurt. June is 125 pounds overweight. And one of the reasons her knees hurt is because they are worn out because they have been carrying an extra load for a long time. And what she would like is for her knees to hurt less. But that’s a difficult equation for me to solve. If we don’t change the underlying scenario of why her knees have been hurting in the first place. So I spend extra time trying to sensitively as possible talk to June about what’s caused the knee arthritis and the importance of weight loss. She already knows this at this point, like she knows she’s overweight. She knows that her weight is contributing to her knee. She doesn’t need me to tell her, this is not new information, but sometimes having that conversation will allow people to ask a question or be able to create a behavioral change or change habits that are really, really successful for them long-term.

Daniel Harkavy:

That’s what many of us are after long-term change or transformation. And just like Dr. Kaluza’s experience, change can often be sparked by a conversation or a question rather than running on autopilot. It takes time and commitment to pull back and ask ourselves, or to allow others to ask us questions. That challenge our thoughts, feelings and beliefs. That can be hard work and even uncomfortable at times. But if we can change what we think, feel and believe, then we have the power to change anything.

Coming up, Todd Mosetter, our Vice President of Content Development will sit down with one of our Building Champions executive coaches to discuss some practical steps you can take to assess your beliefs as a leader to build stronger, more connected teams.

Todd Mosetter:

Hi, my name is Todd Mosetter. I’m an Executive Coach and the Vice President of Content here at Building Champions. And I am so excited to sit down with one of our executive coaches, Sue Weaver, who has been with us for a while now. She’s an experienced leader and manager and she was a client before she came to us. Excited to have her share with us. Sue, welcome.

Sue Weaver:

Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here.

Todd Mosetter:

Love that this episode is all focused on beliefs before behaviors. It’s a core principle that we have here at Building Champions. And I know for my clients, it comes up all the time. Where have you seen this concept really affect your clients?

Sue Weaver:

I think this concept has affected all of my clients all year in particular this year with all of the significant changes that we’ve seen happen, you know, throughout the country, the pandemic is just one of very many changes that have happened. But I, if I think of some examples, just surrounded specifically around COVID one of the things that we’ve all joked about is, you know, people gaining that COVID-19 pounds. And I have a lot of clients who have the stated intention that they want to lose the weight. They want to get back into being more healthy with their exercise and food. So they may have a health coach or talk with a doctor about it. And then they put these tools into place for a while. Then the stresses start to mount and the food becomes the self-soothing thing that they go back to.

Sue Weaver:

And then that whole issue of the weight becomes front and center. Again, I think another place where I’ve seen it this year is just in the boundaries around work and home. The work-life balance. People are living where they work, working, where they live, and it’s really started to bleed together and blend together in a way where people don’t know where the lines are. And so it’s where do they find a way to shut down the work, have the boundaries to be fully present with their family because so many clients have expressed a drift in the relationships. And yet again, the stress has start to build, they go back to kind of working around the clock and then the relationships go back to the drift.

Todd Mosetter:

I love those two examples and they’re so practical. Let’s unpack that second one just real briefly. So if, if I’m blending my work at home anymore, right? My behavior probably used to be, I left work at a certain time and when I got home, most of my behaviors would be with my family. The caveat being, we know how many people struggle with that little shiny device. And even though they were home, they were probably still on that more than, than they probably intend to be. But when the, when the worlds collided a bit, well now they’re working in the same space, right? So the behavior they may put in places, I’m going to be more present with my family. And to your point, it may work for a bit, but at some point stress project, something comes up. Where do you think the biggest misalignment in belief, there is folks who want to be more present with the family, but the behavior is I keep reaching for my phone or working longer than I should.

Sue Weaver:

I think this is probably, there’s an element to this in all of us where we believe that where we get our value and our worth is specifically tied to what we achieve and what our successes are. And those are much easier to measure and observe in a work environment than they are in a home environment. And in this particular environment, wanting people to make sure that we really are available and showing up and doing what is being required and asked of us. I think that is where the belief collision happens.

Todd Mosetter:

Yeah, I think that’s so true. You know, so I think the other thing that comes in, but I’ve seen come into play with some of my clients is the reward systems that are in place on the work side are almost instantaneous, right? We’ve been, we’ve been told we’re really good at our jobs. I submit a project. I immediately get feedback, whether that’s I, when the client, the client says it’s good or whatever, and that reinforces this idea that I’m really good at it, but sometimes I’m not quite as good as a husband, as a father, as a friend it’s harder. And when I feel stressed or I feel like maybe I’m losing some ability to, to feel really good about myself. It’s easy to slide back into work because I get that instant gratification and being pulled on. Good. Again.

Sue Weaver:

I agree with that, but there, and there is also this element of it takes me away from leaning into the fear and anxiety I have. I’m doing, I’m executing. I’m making a difference in the things that matter to the company that I work for when I’m really fully present in that other space. Some of those fears and anxieties, particularly this last year that come to the surface, they might play themselves out in the way that we manage our relationships with whether it’s a spouse or kids or you know, different layers of family. So I think there’s an avoidance piece to it that can happen as well.

Todd Mosetter:

I couldn’t agree more. It’s that piece of comfort too, right? There just feels more comfortable sometimes. And we as humans, that anxiety feeling and change is hard. All right, let’s assume that, uh, we’ve listened. Right? We understand this concept we buy in. Okay. I want to change the behavior. And I understand that I have to change the beliefs underneath it. First, as we heard Daniel talk about, we typically break that mindset piece down into three areas, your thinking, your feeling and your believing. So let’s maybe dive into each of those kind of briefly, if we really want to do improve our thinking, what are some practical things you help your clients implement?

Sue Weaver:

I think the first thing is simple as it sounds is to get really aware of what it is that you’re thinking. So if you take my example about the health and the weight gain, in that first example, I had a particular client to have her be aware of that thought to kind of stop and capture it, to be able to say, is that really true? Is it possible that you could actually get ahead of your weight? So some of it to me is taking the mental effort to even know what the thoughts are because so many times we just operate on autopilot. We just move and we have absolutely no idea what thoughts we’re thinking, but we’re driven by them. And so being aware of them, I think is probably the biggest place to start where I would coach clients to do.

Todd Mosetter:

I love that one. So, you know, another one that I found helpful that I’d love your insight on is also being aware and discerning where we’re getting our thoughts from right in today in a digital age, the entry into our mind is a lot easier than it used to be. And what I mean by that is, you know, 20 years ago you had a circle of friends you’d go to for input. You’d read a book, maybe you’d watch TV, but now you’re getting inputs from the web, from social, from other people who, whose voices are amplified. So I do think there’s this piece to being a little more intentional and weighing, where are we getting these thinking and these thoughts and these inputs, and are they valuable or not? Should I trust them or not rather than just letting them sink in.

Sue Weaver:

I agree with that in some of it has to do with the intention you put around what it is you’re going to feed your mind in the first place. And the second thing is realizing we don’t actually have to believe everything. We think, I think that pie think that there is this idea that if the thought goes through our head, then there must be some truth to it. I’m not worthy enough to make that work. I can’t have that happen. And somehow we land on. So it must be true. And so I think some of it is what you’re talking about. What are you feeding yourself? But then also being able to unravel is this actually a truth that I want to sink into my spirit and operate from.

Todd Mosetter:

I think that’s such a good point. And it’s a perfect segue into the second area, right? Which is our beliefs because they’re so closely connected. I think it’s an art form to be able to engage in thinking and then how it, it fills into our beliefs rather than to your point, assuming that they’re there, right? One of the classic analogies is you can have a bad thought. It doesn’t make you a bad person, right? You don’t necessarily act on it. You don’t actually do it. But to your point, thoughts, pop into our head all the time. The science shows us that we actually aren’t in control of our thinking nearly as much as, as we would like to think we are ideas, just pop in the question is, do you hold on to that idea? Do you play with it? Do you marinate on it? Do you actually allow it to sink in and affect your beliefs or to your point, does it pop it and go, whatever, great, push that out, get it out of here. Do, do you let it affect your actual belief system?

Sue Weaver:

Yeah. And I think it’s good for us to remember. We get a lot of choice in that. We get a lot of decision in that we get to look at it and say yes or no. This is something that would serve me. Well, this is something that would not, but it is also a window into understanding what we believe. If I have a continuous thought pattern around, I’m not worthy enough for X. If I have enough of those, then I can actually look at that and say, Hey, is there something in me that is believing I’m not worthy? Is there evidence for that? Is that really what I want to operate from? And kind of start doing some digging that requires a mirror and ask questions around. What is that really about? It’s an awareness piece. Again, I don’t think it’s easy to simply mentally change a belief. That’s the heart of the matter, but to get to the heart of the matter, we start, have to start asking ourselves some of these more difficult questions.

Todd Mosetter:

Yeah. And that’s like, we talked about with the early example. Sometimes you slide back into work because it’s comfortable, right? The belief piece is it’s hard work. And if we’re being honest, not all of us are always up for that hard work at every moment of every time. Because to your point, we’re asking some really deep questions about ourselves. And to your point, you know, an example that would come to mind, let’s, let’s invent one real fast. So, so I’m in a meeting and somebody does something the way they respond to me. Well, I can, I can think that they’re doing that to be confrontational to me. Right? Which then sparks a feeling, right. I begin to feel confrontational back. So I have a choice to give in to that thought or that feeling, or to your point, do I stop and say, okay, so what do I actually believe about this person? Do I believe this person is for me or against me? Do I believe we have a good relationship? Do I believe they’re insulting me? Or there’s an opportunity to filter all of those through that system of beliefs to then I love your point to make a choice about, does that align with how I truly believe or is the thinking and feeling in the moment, bullying me a bit, right? Overshadowing it to a point and driving me to a different place.

Sue Weaver:

Yeah. And that’s where some assumptions come into. Like we’ve got to question the assumptions that we, because we just believe the assumption when really it’s like, well, can we really know that this is the place that that person was coming from? But the other piece that you’re talking about that I love is we can watch our own behaviors. So we believe beliefs come before behaviors. So what’s cool about that is we can observe our own behaviors and get a picture of what it is we’re believing. And so, as to your example, when you hear things like that typically does that trigger that same response? Meaning what is it you’re believing when people phrase things a certain way, I’m making it a much more global kind of conversation. But I think those are the bigger questions.

Todd Mosetter:

Yeah. I love that. It feels weird that we’re getting to the, the feeling piece third because of how important it is. A quick aside that comes to mind is we we’ve been using this model with clients for awhile. And when we first started really working on it, it was actually more of a pyramid. So we had, we had more of an order to it, right? This happens, then this happens, then this happens. And then we’ve adopted over the years to turn it into two gears because the thinking, feeling and belief, it’s so hard to tell which one is which, and which is happening at the time, because your thought quickly sparks a feeling which then filters through your belief. Like they almost happen spontaneously. Correct. But the one that tends to really supercharge the wheel, if you will make it spin extra fast, I think is that feeling piece, right? Thoughts and beliefs, as powerful as they are, don’t carry the same weight as that emotional piece, because we like to think of ourselves as rational beings that feel, but we all know we’re really feeling creatures that then use rationality to justify what we do. So if I’m trying to really change my beliefs, that emotion piece is key. Where do you really help your clients start looking at that feelings piece?

Sue Weaver:

It’s a great question. So the feeling space, like you’re saying it is a driver that unlike the thinking piece, which you can have a little bit more mental and rational control over, or you can start to ask questions around the believing piece, the emotional piece can just grab you and take you down a spiral to spin. And you’re off really falling down into a hole before you even realize that you have fallen. And so for me, working with clients, the biggest thing again, comes back to two things. One is to be so aware that you recognize the moment you’re about to spin. And that is incredibly difficult. It takes focus, it takes practice, it takes dedication and intention. And then also observe the stories you’re creating from the spin. So if I am, I’ll use your example, even though this is not at what you did with it.

Sue Weaver:

If you’re in this made-up meeting and somebody said something to you and you think, oh my gosh, you’re attacking me. You attack me all the time. And I start to spin. Then my anxiety level goes up. What happens in the next meeting? How’s that going to reflect on my performance? Because this person is attacking me. What’s that going to mean for my reputation? And suddenly I find myself completely wound high living in a story that is not my current reality, but I take all of the emotion and make it my current reality. And so for me, part of it is helping people to refocus to how could you reframe that into a positive story, start to get your emotions into what can you create? That is what if this opens an opportunity for me to know this person better? What if I get to listen in a different way and contribute in a way I couldn’t before just kind of moving away from all of the negativity that can come and moving toward like the positive, what ifs, the positive stories that can be created from whatever the situation is to kind of help bring some calm so that you can think, right.

Sue Weaver:

And some of it is, um, I call it a pattern interrupt. So if you are really spinning, get up and jump up and down, go take a little jog around the room or the block because the interrupt of the depth of emotional spin can actually help to bring back some center and then a better ability to kind of get a grasp on it.

Todd Mosetter:

I think you unpacked you, you included so many great things. There are a couple of things that I think are good at unpacking is we’ve talked about this with a couple of the areas and it’s so important. I think it bears repeating examination is so key, right? We tend to run on autopilot so often in our lives and we don’t realize it, but we’ve made these comfortable routines for ourselves that we just go from thing to thing to thing. And from a physiological perspective, that comfort is reassuring in some ways, but it can cause us some problems in another. So that, that point of being very mindful, what actually am I thinking about, let me stop and let me reflect on it. What am I actually believing about myself? Other people, the world. Let me reflect on that. I think this emotional piece is key too, is I think if you can do a better job of establishing your baseline, being more mindful in the moment, how am I feeling right now in this instance?

Todd Mosetter:

And what are the physical cues that go along with that? How’s my breathing, how’s my heart rate. Am I clenching and establish kind of like what your baseline is. And most of us don’t do a good enough job there because then to your point in a meeting, when you feel a change in that, Oh, hold on a sec, I’m breathing a little shorter here. Right? I just realized I’m tensing up a little bit. Right. I looked down and I didn’t even realize, but my, my hands are clenched, right. Or I’m feeling a little, a little flush. You can use those changes to, to break the pattern. Like you’re saying to actually say, wait, I’m noticing something different is going on here. And then cognitively try and break that pattern to your point. But if you don’t create that opportunity to interrupt next time you realize it, you’re clenched, you’re angry. Your breath is off and you’re yelling, right? Because you’ve gone, you’ve waited for the explosion if you would. Yeah.

Sue Weaver:

This is what can happen when we let ourselves just free-fall in the spin is we’re going to lash out and blame. And that’s a very different thing than asking yourself. I’m feeling triggered all over the place. What is actually happening for me that I need to look at instead of the lash out and the blame.

Todd Mosetter:

I think that’s so key. The other, the other quick thought on that too, is I think it’s also being mindful of which situations might you struggle with, right? So it’s almost like there’s that in the moment being aware of what’s going on, but being mindful of this type of situation tends to trip me up a bit and then going into it, being more aware, being on guard in a good way, almost if you will. Like, if you know, you’re about to go into a big meeting where lots of people are going to give you feedback on your idea. Well, that might make you go, okay, I could get a little defensive, I could get a little, you know, confrontational. So let’s be mindful going into this meeting to really watch my reaction, really watch my feelings. So I don’t get caught in that spiral. I think there’s an in the moment piece, and there’s a preparation piece, knowing what your triggers are and then you’re in a better spot to respond.

Sue Weaver:

Yeah. And I think we have to be really kind to ourselves in this. I think we need to pour a lot of grace on ourselves because if we can have that observation or we can notice things and then find the tools like what you’re saying to come better prepared or some anchors that will kind of help settle us versus going into some kind of horrible judgment around the fact that we feel that.

Todd Mosetter:

Yeah. So if we’ve got some systems in place, like you’re saying, right, both for our thinking, feeling and beliefs, we like to think that we’re all uniquely different. But as I love what Dan early says in his book, we’re predictably irrational. Most of us end up acting in a similar kind of focus. If we had to leave our folks with maybe a couple of things to be aware of these types of situations beyond guard against when it comes to your beliefs and behaviors, not getting aligned, any kind of advice or insight that comes to mind of areas to be especially aware of.

Sue Weaver:

I think, I think about just this, let’s just take the political heat of this whole last year. People are very polarized in their opinions. So that’s an extreme example, but from the standpoint of what you’re asking, if you can come from a place of curiosity versus I need you to understand my point and way of thinking, it actually opens up a different world of possibility and listening to know someone else where you might find you end up not quite as triggered if you will, when you go into certain conversations. So I’m very, I’m a big fan of curiosity because it, it just shuts down the defenses a little bit. And then anything that you can do to kind of, when you recognize some things happening, even if you interrupt yourself and just say, excuse me, and leave and come back. I think all of those things can become powerful patterns to help in the moment, but then also create a space where we have the bandwidth to look at what are the answers to those bigger questions, you know, in a calm, grounded way.

Todd Mosetter:

I think it goes, you’re so great. You know, maybe one or two quick thoughts to just tack on the end there, Sue would be, you know, where I think the beliefs and behaviors really can go sideways sometimes is when they really come at your identity. I think that’s an area that we all can be especially mindful of. So from our very first example, if you put all your identity and work well, changing behaviors around your work is going to be hard. If your beliefs aren’t there. If your identity comes from being the smartest person, I know, I mean, a lot of us had this identity that we’re, the person has the answers. We have the solutions well changing behavior around that without that belief piece is going to be so hard. But I think if you can really understand, if you’re trying to change a behavior and the belief is tied to wherever you’re getting your identity or worth from, you probably need to do a special, heavy lifting on that belief side, or it’s going to be really hard to change the behaviors with.

Sue Weaver:

Oh, absolutely. And that’s why identifying what those key places are, is so important because we have this, our identity is tied in so many different areas and maybe there are people who aren’t even sure what that identity is tied into. And so knowing those things is really, really critical.

Todd Mosetter:

So thank you so much. Any closing thoughts that we haven’t shared yet? If there was one last thing you need to share with folks, what would it be?

Sue Weaver:

I think I would just come around and say, hey, we’re all in this together. This is a human journey and there’s not a single one of us who isn’t sort of on a continuum of what we think, what we feel and what we believe. But I really do believe the more we unravel those layers of the onion, the cleaner and clearer we can show up in every single aspect and relationship of our lives.

Daniel Harkavy:

Thanks so much to my doctor and my friend, Dr. Karl Kaluza for sharing his patient stories and unique insight. As a reminder, you can listen to other episodes and access relevant tools by visiting buildingchampions.com forward slash podcast. And we’d love it if you could share the podcast and leave us a rating and a review in your Apple podcasts app, doing so helps people to find us. And it helps us to learn what we’re doing well and how we can continue to grow and provide our listeners with content that will truly transform their lives and their lives.